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PRIMETIME JUSTICE WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD
Dismembered Body in Padlocked Freezer/Woman`s Body Found in the Woods; Cops Rule Death Suspicious; Are Deaths Related?; The Hunt With John Walsh; Bizarre Defense? Aired 8-9p ET
Aired July 31, 2017 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[20:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A young woman disappears.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The remains of possibly a female was found at a house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And when unidentified remains are found in a freezer, the investigation takes on new urgency.
A woman vanishes on a walk with her husband in a Texas forest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At some point, Mr. Kirkpatrick lost sight of his wife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With her body just discovered, nothing`s ruled out, including foul play.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detectives felt Gage Roberts`s story of waking up with his baby in bed and finding him not breathing was inconsistent with
the infant`s bluish appearance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you think Crimson (ph) died?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If anything, one of us accidentally rolled over on him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The couple had a 6-month-old baby die in 2015 in Kansas in a, quote, "strikingly similar way."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The child who died was a happy 6-year-old, a good little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Precious, precious little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Darla Heist (ph) is in custody, charged with first degree murder after the shooting on Billy Goat Lane.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did a mother who allegedly shot and killed her 6-year- old daughter think she was saving her from aliens?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOEY JACKSON, HLN HOST: A pleasant good evening, everyone. I`m Joey Jackson, in for Ashleigh Banfield. And this is PRIMETIME JUSTICE.
A grisly mystery is unfolding after a body was found in a freezer in a private home. Now, authorities had been searching for Shannon Graves --
you see her there -- who vanished months ago. And then this shocking discovery. The body that was found has not yet been identified, but
Graves`s boyfriend -- that`s Arturo Novoa -- allegedly asked a store -- he was (sic) asked to store a freezer in the same Ohio house saying his
utilities had been shut off. Now Novoa and his new girlfriend are under arrest as the investigation is just getting under way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. DOUG BOBOVNYIK, YOUNGSTOWN POLICE DEPARTMENT: Saturday afternoon, the remains of possibly a female was found at a house in Camel (ph). Camel PD
notified us because we had several BOLOs out on some missing females. And we`re going to follow up on the information related to them. We have no
identification on the remains at this time. It has gone to Cuyahoga County coroner`s office, where there`s going to be an examination, and we`ll know
more later on this week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: Now, Janet Rogers is a reporter for WFMJ. She joins us from Youngstown, Ohio. So let`s go through this. When was she first
discovered, or at least reported missing? Some indications are it was Christmas. Others, it was February. Then it is May. Take us through it,
please.
JANET ROGERS, WFMJ: She was on the attorney general`s Web site as early as Christmas. Her sister had been saying that something was wrong. Debby
DePaul (ph) had been saying something is wrong. My sister missed my birthday. She wouldn`t, like, just not talk to my dad. She wouldn`t talk
to her friends or family, and she never would leave her dog. She had a little dog that she loved. And she said something is wrong.
So people had known that there was something wrong. There are varying dates where she was put on certain watch lists, but there were Facebook
posts and things like that earlier. And when I had talked with people who know Arturo Novoa, they had said that he had explained that she had left
him for another man and left him for another man who lived in Cleveland.
And they asked about the car. They asked about the dog. And he had explained all of those away saying that, Well, she just picked up and left
because she, you know, wanted this other man.
JACKSON: So Janet, let`s be clear about it, though. There were some indications that she would be gone for some stretches of time, right? So
people who knew her didn`t think it was anything unusual for her to be gone for a few weeks. Or was it the fact that there were months that had gone
by that caused the issue?
ROGERS: It was the fact that she left her car. Her car was left, her car keys, her cell phone and her dog. And she was really pretty much in
constant contact with her dad. Her friends said that, yes, she would, you know, come and go and they would see her for a while and not see her.
But I don`t know. I`m pretty much a dog person, too. If you -- if my dog`s there alone, you know something`s wrong with me. So there are some
people who are just very devoted to a constant loving, unconditional companion, you know, your dog, so...
JACKSON: And every woman`s best friend.
ROGERS: Absolutely girl`s best friend, too.
JACKSON: No question about it. And just take us through the issue with the freezer. Take us through that whole mystery and how she`s really
discovered in the freezer, and whether she is dismembered or not.
[20:05:06]ROGERS: On Saturday, a friend of Arturo Novoa called police to say that he had discovered a body in the freezer. He had told police that,
basically, the -- Arturo Novoa, who worked at a national, you know, steak chain house, steakhouse, that he had told him his electricity was turned
off and he wanted to store a freezer in his basement. So he figured why not?
I guess he`s known Arturo Novoa for about four-and-a-half years. He has a little recording studio there, and you know, records songs and stuff. And
he -- you know, he explained that everybody thinks that they`re an aspiring rapper. So that`s how he knew him.
He`d even, you know, basically -- and had been pretty good friends. And he was just absolutely in shock and horrified when he found out what was in
that freezer. He said there was a padlock on it, and that, basically, he would joke around, and you know, say, Oh, I guess you don`t -- you know,
you don`t want me to have your steaks and things like that.
And on Saturday around 4:00 o`clock, they opened the freezer. From what I understand, they took the bolt off, not the lock, and made this horrifying
discovery, from what I understand, you know, garbage bags. But the smell, from what I understand he described was just awful, just awful. I mean, I
can`t even imagine opening my refrigerator or a freezer that a friend stored in the house to find something like this.
JACKSON: It`s unthinkable. And Janet, one other thing before we get to the actual prosecutor we have here, Dana Lantz, in a minute, but just in
terms of the back story -- and he`s not charged with murder as of this time. But do we know anything about his relationship with his girlfriend
or former girlfriend such that he would be motivated to commit a crime like this?
ROGERS: I`m not sure whether his current girlfriend had something to do. He is not charged with murder. From what I understand -- I had talked with
Lieutenant Doug Bobovnyik with Youngstown police. He said they expect possibly a positive identification tomorrow with dental records from the
family.
I just know that there was a contentious relationship, from what people have -- people who have talked with me say that there was a contentious
relationship between Shannon Graves, the woman who is deceased, and Katrina Layton, the woman who is charged with abuse of a corpse. And she had
admitted to police that she actually did buy that freezer.
However, from what I understand, she tells police that she bought that freezer to store meat because her refrigerator wasn`t working properly, and
it was, you know, in another house. But prosecutor Dana Lantz outlined many things, many contradictory things about how that story just really
does not seem credible.
JACKSON: And Janet Rogers, stand by, because that`s a perfect segue because we have Dana Lantz. And of course, she`s the Youngstown, Ohio,
city prosecutor. And she joins us from Youngstown right now.
So Dana, nice to have you here. I know you`re busy. We appreciate your time. So take us through what are the current charges on behalf of the
boyfriend and his girlfriend, and why those charges?
DANA LANTZ, YOUNGSTOWN CITY PROSECUTOR (via telephone): Thank you, attorney Jackson, for having me. Presently, both Arturo Novoa and Katrina
Layton are charged with abuse of a corpse, which essentially is to treat a human corpse in a way that would outrage reasonable community standards.
It`s a felony of the fifth degree in the state of Ohio.
At this point in time, we do not actually have a positive identification as to the victim, although it seems reasonable that it is that of Shannon
Graves. And we do not actually have a cause of death at this point. So we anticipate receiving results from the coroner`s office some time next week
and anticipate further charges in connection with this case.
JACKSON: And just to clarify for the viewers, a misdemeanor being not significant or everything, of course, by criminal way is significant, but a
felony in the fifth degree means exactly what in your jurisdiction, in terms of time that someone could be sentenced to?
LANTZ: A felony in the fifth degree is our lowest degree felony in the state of Ohio. It`s a sentence up to 12 months in jail. It`s a felony
because of the nature that it would outrage community standards. There is an abuse of corpse misdemeanor charge, but in this case, it was charged
under the felony section. So if this were a stand-alone charge and we were not looking at other charges, it would be 12 months incarceration.
JACKSON: And now, Dana Lantz, obviously, you`re looking at the, you know, eventuality that there will be murder charges here. Now, just in looking
at that, what are you waiting for? You are waiting for the positive ID of the body. How is that going to happen? And then what happens in the event
that it is positively ID`d as the girlfriend?
[20:10:04]LANTZ: Well, in addition, as you know -- in addition to having identification, we have to have a cause of death. And once we have those
two, in addition to the facts that we have already ascertained as outlined in the abuse of corpse case and some other evidence that the police have in
their possession, we anticipate further charges being filed.
That being said, it`s all contingent upon what else we learn in the facts in this case. The investigators have been working this case for -- since
the missing person report was filed in June. It was filed on June 22nd, I believe. And several search warrants have been done for a multitude of
different things, residences, phones and the like. So they put together a timeline of what they believed happened. And once it all bears out, we
anticipate further charges.
JACKSON: Dana, are you at liberty to share any of the evidence that you have so far that might lead to a connection between the people who are now
charged, of course, with this abusing a corpse and actual murder?
LANTZ: All we can divulge at this time is what was contained in the complaint, and Janet Rogers outlined a lot of that. They did buy the
freezer that we found the remains in. Ms. Layton admitted buying the freezer. Mr. Novoa disavowed any knowledge of it. So there are a lot of
inconsistencies between the two.
They had a separate apartment that they weren`t living in, but they were paying rent for that we anticipate determining that the body was at that
location for quite a period of time. There`s still some unanswered questions that we have, obviously, but what`s outlined in our complaint
details what we can release at this time.
JACKSON: And Dana, just in terms of motivation, is there any motive that you could make us aware of as to why this alleged occurrence, if it becomes
murder -- why it would have taken place? Not to get ahead of ourselves, but I think you`re heading in that direction.
LANTZ: What we know now is that since last summer, the victim, Shannon Graves, the purported victim Shannon Graves, and Arturo Novoa were involved
in a relationship. Prior to that, Arturo was involved in a relationship with Katrina Layton. It`s my understanding that the victim and Mr. Novoa
had some difficulties in their relationship as relates to other people, but that Shannon had indicated right before she went missing that she was going
to give it one last chance to work on the relationship. So what happened or transpired yet isn`t clear as to what may have precipitated any foul
play.
JACKSON: And Dana, I`m going to turn to two other outstanding attorneys momentarily. But if I can just ask you, on the issue of dismemberment --
is that a fact, that the body was dismembered?
DANA: What we know now is that there was more than one container or bag in the freezer. But due to the state of the remains, we can`t be certain what
the state of the body was, and the coroner`s office hasn`t released any of that information to us as of yet.
JACKSON: And so in time, you`ll get the cause of death, you`ll be able to identify who it was and you`ll be able to further your prosecution, is that
about right?
LANTZ: That`s absolutely correct.
JACKSON: Dana Lantz, we appreciate you. We know you have a case to prosecute. So thank you for joining us, OK? Thanks a lot.
Joining us now from New York, right here, Danny Cevallos, CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, and of course, Diana Aizman. It`s been a
long time, Diana. Good to see you.
DIANA AIZMAN, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Nice to see you.
JACKSON: You`re playing prosecutor tonight. Thank you so much. So from a prosecutorial perspective, Diana, what say you? I mean, ultimately, this
appears to be a murder case. Not there yet, but you think it`s heading in that direction, and if so, how do you prosecute?
AIZMAN: It`s definitely heading in that direction. At this point, all you have to do is connect the dots, right? So we have to have an investigation
that`s fully finished and it has to show, first of all, the identity, who is this woman. And if it is who we think it is, then we need to determine
what the cause of death was.
And if the cause of death is a homicide, then we need to start putting together circumstantial evidence that establishes a motive, means,
opportunity, et cetera, to convince a jury with proof beyond a reasonable doubt that these two people had some part in the murder or homicide of this
woman and ultimately tried to cover it up by dismembering her body and stuffing it in a freezer.
JACKSON: So Danny Cevallos, I think, is going to have a lot to say about that. So Danny, I ask you, what information do we have at this point where
you could say, You know what? This is really not a murder. And I know it`s not charged yet, but you know they`re heading in that direction. Does
Diana have a point?
DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Our prosecutor tonight, not the one you interviewed, but the one across the panel from me...
JACKSON: Diana Aizman.
CEVALLOS: ... just made my case for me. She walked you through all the stepping stones that the prosecution needs to get to before this is even
something you can point at these individuals and pin this case on them. Look, mere presence, even at a horrific crime, is not a crime unless you
participated.
[20:15:10]So the mere fact that this may be a homicide, the mere fact that this body may be the missing woman does not a murder make, and it does not
a murder make on these individuals, although I will concede it does not look good for them. They certainly look suspicious. But suspicious is not
beyond a reasonable doubt. This may end up being a murder prosecution. We`re not there yet.
JACKSON: Diana Aizman, you have the burden of proof, so you have the last word.
AIZMAN: We`re not there yet, but that doesn`t mean that they`re not going to get there eventually. And all they need is identity, motive, means,
opportunity -- I mean, yes, there`s a lot that they need, but ultimately, what`s going to happen is...
CEVALLOS: Just those things.
AIZMAN: Yes, just those things. At the end of this investigation, it will be clear that this woman was most likely murdered, and these are the two
people that had the opportunity, the motive and the means to do it.
JACKSON: Interestingly enough to me, Diana and Danny, if someone`s asking me to store a freezer in my house because their electricity`s not working,
I think that raises a major red flag. I think we could agree on that...
AIZMAN: Yes.
JACKSON: ... even if we disagree whether it`s murder or not murder. Stay tuned...
AIZMAN: With a padlock on it.
JACKSON: Yes, which you break open. In any event, stay tuned, both of you. We need you a lot more. Many stories to come, including this one.
A mysterious discovery in the east Texas woods. A mom is found dead and alone after her husband said she disappeared during a hike. But her
brother is having none of it. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL KISER, THERESA KIRKPATRICK`S BROTHER: My sister would have never been out in these woods. Her medical condition wouldn`t allow it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: So what happened to Theresa Kirkpatrick and how did she become separated from her husband to begin with?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:21:00]JACKSON: Foul play has not been ruled out in the death of a Texas woman who vanished during a walk in the woods with her husband. No,
Theresa Kirkpatrick`s body was found in Sam Houston National Forest over the weekend. Search teams worked in the heat after Kirkpatrick became
separated from her husband on Friday morning. But police have sent forensics teams to the scene, and they even set up a command post to figure
out exactly what happened. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KISER: My sister would have never been out in these woods. Her medical condition wouldn`t allow it. She had a herniated disk in her back. She
was a type 2 diabetic, high blood pressure and emphysema. She`d have never been out here in these woods like this. She don`t go out in the woods.
She don`t go hiking. She doesn`t go out of her yard. She`s too -- her medical condition won`t allow it. She`s lucky if she can stand the heat
for 30, 40 minutes at a time sitting on her porch while she shares and visits with her family.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JACKSON: Cody Stark is the news editor for "The Huntsville Item." He joins us from Huntsville, Texas. So take us through this case. When did
she become separated from her husband? How long was it before the husband actually reported it? And when was she discovered?
CODY STAR, "HUNTSVILLE ITEM" (via telephone): Well, it was my understanding that the night before, on Thursday, that they were out there
and a motorcycle got stuck or broke down, and they returned -- I don`t know, I think it was around 8:00, 8:30 AM the next morning to look for it.
And at some point, they became separated. The husband told authorities that he probably looked for her for almost eight hours. So it was probably
around 4:00, 4:30 or 5:00 Friday afternoon before he finally said he became exhausted, and that`s when he decided to call 911.
JACKSON: So Cody Stark, let me get it straight. So he`s looking for his wife all day, for eight hours, and he doesn`t call anyone. He just looks
by himself? No indication to police, to friends, to family. He`s just searching for eight hours.
STARK: Yes, that`s what he said. Now, I have been out there, and it is a very, very rugged area, lots of hills and terrain, you know, lots of thick
brush. There was actually -- probably a few weeks ago, there was a 3-year- old boy that went missing near the campsite, you know, out there in the national forest.
So -- but that`s what he`s saying. And I think that`s one of the reasons why they`re treating this as a suspicious incident because -- you know,
because of the time period it took, the eight hours, for him to alert authorities.
JACKSON: At what point did the authorities ultimately get involved and uncover or discover the body?
STARK: Well, he finally called -- like I said, he finally called 911 around...
JACKSON: At 4:30.
STARK: ... 4:00, 4:30 that afternoon. Yes. Well, then they searched all night. You know, they had helicopters out there, and Texas Department of
Criminal Justice brought some of their dogs. I believe they called off the search around 1:00 o`clock that morning and continued the next day. And
her body was ultimately discovered I believe it was around 10:00 AM on Saturday by rescue workers.
JACKSON: And tell us about the heating conditions, if we know, the weather conditions there, and also her medical ailments.
STARK: Well, of course, it`s Texas and it`s summertime. So you know, the heat is probably in the mid-90s on Friday, but you also get your heat index
that pushes that up to around 105, 106, in that area. And a woman that was reportedly -- you know, has the medical conditions that she had, diabetes,
the back problems, multiple medical problems that she was suffering from, it would have been very difficult out there, especially being stuck out
there for eight hours.
JACKSON: And Cody, any indication of the cause of death?
STARK: Not yet. I actually spoke with the Walker County sheriff`s office today. The autopsy was supposed to happen this afternoon. They still
haven`t gotten the results on that, but they also have to run toxicology. So that could -- it could be a while before they actually get the exact
cause of death.
[20:25:04]JACKSON: News editor Cody Stark, we appreciate you.
I want to bring in now Dr. Michelle DuPre. She`s a forensic pathologist and medical examiner. She joins us from Columbia, South Carolina. So
Doctor, let me ask you -- apparently, we know that she has a number of conditions, high blood pressure, diabetes. How is that going to affect
someone, particularly in the Texas heat, when you`re hiking or on a trail like this?
DR. MICHELLE DUPRE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST/MEDICAL EXAMINER: Actually, that`s an excellent question, and it`s going to exacerbate any of those
conditions. The heat is certainly going to cause -- perhaps cause dehydration. She could have an insulin issue. Anything with asthma or
anything like that will also be exacerbated by the heat.
JACKSON: And how, if at all, does that go to the issue? I mean, he`s searching for eight hours. Do you think -- I mean, with someone with these
medical conditions that you have -- and I left out the fact, Doctor, she has a herniated back. I mean, at what point would someone who has -- is
getting dehydrated, what point is dehydration going to seep in? At what point is that going to affect blood pressure issues in a circumstance like
this, in the Texas heat?
DUPRE: Actually, it`s probably not going to take very long. And again, all of that will escalate and it will be a domino effect.
JACKSON: And we don`t know at this point what the cause of death is. Considering that she has these various conditions in the event that she`s
out there and does become dehydrated, how long does a person have before it gets critical and serious?
DUPRE: That can really vary. The most important thing, of course, is going to be that dehydration. If she has an insulin issue, that can be
very quick. She could go into insulin shock, and certainly, again, the heat and the dehydration is going to exacerbate that. It may not take
long.
JACKSON: And Doctor, just -- not to press you too much, but just in terms of time, because what we know and we`re trying to piece this together --
and I`m going to bring in the lawyers momentarily to help, you know, bring some clarity to this -- but you say not too long. He apparently says at
8:30, he became separated, and then at 4:30, he calls the police. During that eight-hour span, what can happen specifically within that eight-hour
span in the Texas sun?
DUPRE: Again, the dehydration can set in, and that can exacerbate an insulin issue. If she goes into diabetic shock, that can happen in a
matter of minutes, she could go and become unconscious, she can have seizures. There are all sorts of things that can happy from that, just
simply from a complication of diabetes and that insulin shock.
JACKSON: Any indication, Doctor, of what a cause of death could be, or is that too speculative at this point?
DUPRE: It`s actually pretty speculative at this point, but there are certainly a number of things that could contribute to that.
JACKSON: Such as?
DUPRE: Such as the diabetes, for one thing, the insulin shock insufficiency, as long as there`s no blunt trauma, of course, that hasn`t
been ruled out yet, so any of those things.
JACKSON: Doctor, we appreciate you very much, Dr. Michelle DuPre.
Want to bring in now Diana Aizman, as well as Danny Cevallos. And look, I want to get to the issue of what happened here. Obviously, the brother is
having major concerns -- Diana, I`ll go to you first -- in terms of whether or not there`s some truth to this. And let me just play a sound bite for
you. It`s of the brother being -- getting the location of the body. And I want you to react to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KISER: I went to the hospital this morning to visit with her husband. And he told me where she was.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told you where her body was?
KISER: Basically, where I could find her at.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So what`s going through your mind right now?
KISER: Somebody took my sister from me, and they`re going to face judgment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: Diana Aizman, do you buy the story? They separated eight hours he happened to call the police. Why? Why not?
AIZMAN: It`s so -- it`s too early. I mean, Danny can have a field day with this one. There`s a lot here that we don`t know yet. We don`t know
what ultimately led to her demise. We have no idea if he had anything to do with this.
Right now, all I`m looking at is a grieving brother who wants justice for the death of his sister. But she was suffering from so many different
ailments that without a cause of death, without some sort of a coroner`s report, we really have no way of determining whether or not there was, in
fact, foul play.
Yes, of course, they haven`t ruled it out yet, and ultimately, they`re going to need to look at all of the issues surrounding the marriage of
these two people to determine whether or not that is something that this person is capable of, whether or not there`s motive for that. But at this
point -- at this point in the investigation, it`s just too soon to call this homicide.
JACKSON: Danny Cevallos agrees. She did your job, Danny.
CEVALLOS: Well, thank you. But I have to add this. I`m not creating a how-to book for how to commit a crime, but it seems time and time again,
the toughest cases to prove as crimes are those where somebody lets the elements take care of somebody for them, in other words, the accidental
slip off a cliff, getting lost in the woods, letting the elements and letting a bear or letting the water take care of whatever criminal intent
you have.
[20:30:00]
JACKSON: So what I hear Danny to be saying, he`s being the prosecutor saying the husband set her up to be in these elements and Diana --
CEVALLOS: Not so fast.
JACKSON: -- Diana facing --
(CROSSTALK)
CEVALLOS: Not so fast.
JACKSON: We`ll argue later. And on other stories, we know that this is a tragedy. More to come. Now, there`s also outrage tonight in Southern
California. And that`s where a young couple is in custody after their 18- day-old -- you heard me -- 18-day-old newborn died. And it`s not the first time that they lost a baby. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OLIVIA MILLER, WITNESS: I heard her in the bedroom, oh, my God, you did it again. You did it again. And Gage kept saying, I can bring him back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JACKSON: Authorities in Southern California are trying to get to the bottom of a very disturbing case. Now a mother and father are accused of
smothering their 18-day-old baby boy in a motel room. First respond
[20:35:00] is allegedly found the maid giving the infant CPR as the parents stood by. But this is not the first time that Gage Roberts and wife, Debra,
lost a son. Officials say their 6-month-old baby died in 2015 under similar circumstances. And now, the couple is arrested just hours after the birth
of their third child.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you think Crimson died?
GAGE ROBERTS, CHARGED WITH SECOND-DEGREE MURDER: If anything, one of us accidentally rolled over on him. But we`re both -- we`re both sensitive
enough to where we would have woke up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: Olivia LaVoice is a reporter for CNN affiliate KGET. She joins us from Bakersfield, California. So take us through this mysterious case. How
did this happen? What are they saying? What`s their excuse? And what`s next?
OLIVIA LAVOICE, KGET REPORTER (via telephone): Hi, there. OK. So this certainly is a crazy case that we are -- our station sort of stumbled on,
and we had no idea that there was a second baby that had died in the couple`s custody.
Essentially what the father, Gage, tells me is -- I mean, he essentially chalked it up to bad luck. He said that he and his wife, Debra, both loved
their children and they said both of the babies` deaths are just unexplainable tragedies.
From what we hear from the Topeka District Attorney`s Office, they say that they`ve been investigating the first child`s death for quite some time now,
for over a year, and that they were investigating it before they knew of the second child`s death.
So right now, you know, we`re waiting to see what will happen in Kern County, a court in Kern County. But of course, it`s the Topeka District
Attorney`s Office, if they`re going to go forward with filing any charges against them.
JACKSON: So, Olivia, just to be clear. They`re saying the excuses that this was bad luck to have lost a second child like this, that`s what
they`re saying?
LAVOICE: Essentially. That was a question that he -- that Gage really struggled to answer. He just, more or less, yes. But, again, it was the
question that he really had a difficult time answering.
He did make a point to tell me multiple times that back in Kansas with the death of their first son, that the coroner called him personally and
apparently spent about an hour on the phone with him, trying to explain this to him.
And he said that the coroner there told them multiple times, him and his wife, that there was nothing they could have done differently. It wasn`t
their fault. So, you know, he never -- and again, he said that if he did hurt either of his children, that it wasn`t intentional.
JACKSON: What`s the cause of death and what are the current charges?
LAVOICE: The cause of death for baby Crimson, who was 18 days old, the coroner`s office is saying that it`s smothering. However, the manner of
death is undetermined. So it was somewhat surprising then that the District Attorney`s Office went forward with charging them both with second-degree
murder as well as cruelty to a child.
JACKSON: And I`m going to get to that with the attorneys in a minute. But I understand there is also another child, a 3-year-old. Do we know where that
3-year-old is now?
LAVOICE: I don`t know about a 3-year-old. They did just have a third child about a day or so -- less than a day, actually, when they were arrested for
the death of their second child.
The way that it was explained to me by both Bakersfield Police and Gage Roberts was they went to the hospital to give birth to their third child
that was also a son.
That baby was taken away from them and placed into protective custody. Gage Roberts said when they left the hospital, they were arrested.
JACKSON: A-ha. We appreciate you, Olivia LaVoice. I want to bring in the attorney now. Diana Aizman and Danny Cevallos back. Now, let`s do
something.
There apparently was a first death and they`re investigating it, of a baby. But I want to play sound from that and then I want to have you react to
this first death for which they are not presently charged,
[20:40:00] but for which they may be. Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MILLER: I heard them in the bedroom saying, oh, my God, you did it again. You did it again. And Gage kept saying, I can bring him back. I can bring
him back. We called 911 and they continued to tell us how to do CPR. At that time, Gage was at the window and pacing and trying to leave the house
and she was crying. You know, Camden (ph) came in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: So, question. Diana, I`ll go to you. On the issue of the first baby that was apparently dead and now we have this baby, how much is it
going to play into this case that there was some other child that died but, by the way, this is an accident and I have bad luck?
DIANA AIZMAN, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Oh, it`s huge. I mean, it`s everything. Basically, the reason that the prosecutors currently are charging him or
charging them both with second-degree murder is because of the death of this first baby.
Essentially, the theory that they were placed on notice and that they knew that any action that would result in the smothering of this child would
obviously have a high probability of death and based on that, they filed murder charges.
It`s essentially tantamount to what we call a wanton (ph) murder here in California which is essentially where a drunk driver goes and kills
somebody on their second DUI, for example.
It`s the same idea where they had noticed that, you know, any action that they were taking with respect to the care of the child was dangerous and
could result in high likelihood of death and it did result in that death and that`s the theory under which they`re charging him and that`s why the
first death of the first child is essential.
JACKSON: So, Danny Cevallos, I ask you. Defense attorney, that first death, the prosecutor is going to want an end to this case to establish what we
know, motive, intent, absence of mistake. Will they get it allowed in? And if so, how damning will it be to the defense?
CEVALLOS: They will probably get that evidence in and it will be super duper, duper damning to the case of the defendant. And here`s why.
Ordinarily, the prior bad things that we all did are not admissible as evidence that we committed this particular crime.
But over the years, judges, the courts, prosecutors have come up with very creative end runs around this rule. And if that evidence comes in, as you
said, Joey, to prove something else like motive, opportunity, the absence of a mistake, these called by calling a rose another name, it can become
something different, it can come into evidence, and a prosecutor can end run right around that prohibition of all the bad things that we did in life
before this case.
JACKSON: Well, I`ll tell you this, Danny. I`ll tell you this, Diana. what I don`t accept is the father saying, we`re just -- we just have bad luck. I
don`t buy that. What actually happened, stay tuned. We`re going to find out in time as both of you stay tuned.
So now, this Sunday, Primetime is primetime on HLN. You are not going to want to miss not one moment of it. John Walsh is back at it. He`s putting
fugitives on blast on the new season of "The Hunt." So, don`t miss your chance to help bring them to justice. This week, John Walsh is on the hunt
for Herman Carroll, a serial child molester who preys on young women. Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF THOMAS, RETIRED SHERIFF, MOULTRIE COUNTY: The date of Herman Carroll`s trial was actually Elizabeth`s 12th birthday. Pretty sad day when
on your birthday, you have to testify against your father that he sexually molested you. Pretty tough day.
JOHN WALSH, THE HUNT HOST: Sheriff Thomas, I think his paternal instincts, the protector, the good man came up and said, somebody`s got to champion
this girl. When she lost her champion, when her destroyer turned out the be her father, I`m going to step up to the plate.
ELIZABETH DERRY, HERMAN CARROLL`S DAUGHTER: Jeff Thomas told me that I was strong, that it takes a strong person to do what I was doing because I was
testifying against Herman at 12 years old.
THOMAS: I purchased for her a small lapel pin, a guardian angel lapel pin. I said, I will be your guardian angel during the court hearings so that you
just look at me. You don`t have to look at your dad. You don`t have to look at anybody else. And just know that I`m there for you and we`re doing this
for you to make sure this never happens to anybody else.
DERRY: I mean, you prepare yourself for the worst day of your life. I mean, that`s to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: Herman Carroll is currently on the run. Help track him down by watching "The Hunt with John Walsh." That`s this Sunday at 8:00 p.m., only
on HLN.
You know, a beautiful 6-year-old girl is shot and killed allegedly by her mother. Cops say that she told them she did it to save her child from
aliens.
[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JACKSON: In Hot Springs, Virginia, a mother is charged with first-degree murder in the shotgun death of her own 6-year-old daughter. They say that
Darla Hise called 911 multiple times saying that her daughter had been shot. But she did not give her name or her address.
When police finally arrived, they found 6-year-old Abigail dead of a single gunshot wound. Darla spoke to the police and they say, quote, she detailed
her psychosis that she believed that her daughter and son were in danger from aliens and that she thought that she was going to save her daughter by
sending her to heaven. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT PLECKER, SHERIFF, BATH COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: After our deputies responded and found out what we had, we then found a 6-year-old
female deceased. I`ve seen a lot of crime scenes, and this one here will probably rank up with probably in
[20:50:00] the top one or two of the crime scene that we`re dealing with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: Tammy Rose is a freelance investigative reporter. She joins us from New York. Wow is the first thing I can say. Aliens. So take us through
this case. What do we know about the mother, about her history?
Is this the first time she engaged in any type of criminal activity? Alien seems to be a stretch, but maybe there`s something of a mental variety
going on. What do you know?
TAMMY ROSE, FREELANCE INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, this is a very bizarre and sad story. The 27-year-old Virginia mother is accused of shooting and
killing her 6-year-old daughter and then later telling detectives that she wanted to send her child to heaven so that she could protect her child from
aliens.
The shooting happened on February 4th inside Darla Hise`s home. Her 3-year- old son was also home at the time. He was not hurt. And he`s staying with a family member. But she made several bizarre statements to doctors and
police that she felt that she had aliens inside her body and her stomach and that she was trying to get them out of her.
JACKSON: Now, Tammy Rose, I want to ask you, because we have a full screen of the various drugs that she allegedly had in her system at the time and,
you know, we`ll go through these. As you see there, methamphetamines, amphetamines, marijuana. How much of that, if we know, may have played a
role in what could be a delusion?
ROSE: Well, her defense lawyers right now are trying to get some of those statements suppressed because they say that their client was not in her
right mind, that she was making these statements when she didn`t realize that she had the right to remain silent. And they said that she was under
the influence of these drugs. And they also said that she has a mental condition. Now, a mental evaluation was performed on her, but those results
have been sealed.
JACKSON: And Tammy Rose, do we know about any back history to this woman? Was this the first time that something like this occurred? I mean, what do
we know about her mental health history that might help solve the mystery of her believing aliens are in her children?
ROSE: Well, I don`t have a lot of that information other than what her attorneys are saying. They did ask for a mental evaluation and those
results have been sealed. We do know that she called police several times for other matters, and they were at her house several times before they
found her 6-year-old daughter. It was a very gruesome scene. She allegedly took a shotgun, fired one round and that was enough to kill Abigail Grace.
JACKSON: Well, we appreciate that, Tammy Rose. I want to go to the lawyers now. Diana Aizman, still here. Danny Cevallos, still here. So, listen, you
saw the full screen of the various drugs that were in her system.
I mean, Danny, take us through that. Is it going to be that perhaps it`s not mental, it`s drug-related. If so, that doesn`t excuse the offense, does
it? We see that. Methamphetamines, amphetamines, marijuana. Explain that.
CEVALLOS:: It`s a chance for a defense attorney, if they can find a medical expert who will testify that this combination, this cocktail of drugs,
methamphetamines, marijuana, somehow caused some kind of psychotic break with reality, then maybe you start getting into the realm of insanity.
But here`s the reality. Any kind of behavior that shows awareness of the criminality of the act, hiding, lying, concealing, that will go against any
insanity defense. The mere use of drugs is not going to excuse your criminal conduct, as we`ve seen, because a large number of criminals commit
crimes while abusing drugs.
JACKSON: Without question. So Diana, from your point of view, from a prosecutor`s perspective, you know what`s going to happen. The feds will
set up the whole insanity issue, if it`s aliens, obviously there was something amiss mentally. How do you overcome that, otherwise suggest that
this was planned, it was delivered, and it was something she intended to do because she was doing it because of aliens?
AIZMAN: Right. Drug-induced psychosis is very different from insanity. There`s a very stark distinction between those two things. This is a woman
who had probably been awake for several days because she was high on methamphetamine and yes, maybe in that moment had a break from reality.
But again as Danny said, that does not excuse her criminal conduct. Juries hate the I was so high that I don`t know what was happening defense. They
hate that, especially --
JACKSON: But it`s not a defense.
AIZMAN: Right, exactly. It`s not a real thing. Ultimately, what they are going to need to show here is that she was able to produce the requisite
intent for a murder, that she carried out that crime, and it`s clear that she actually did that.
She waived her Miranda rights and she spoke to the police making a statement that was incriminating, and ultimately that is going to result in
her conviction.
JACKSON: Well, I appreciate you mentioning that. I want to go to Danny on this with the statement, right? You are going to argue it wasn`t voluntary,
it wasn`t knowing. She was up all night, in the emergency room. Do you get the statement suppressed that would otherwise
[20:55:00] incriminate your client?
CEVALLOS: You better hope so. I mean, this is exactly the kind of statement that you might have a shot at suppressing, but the magic word when it comes
to suppressing these statements is the voluntariness and be prepared for the prosecution to show all the reasons why this statement, when it was
given, was voluntary.
There was no coercion. The suspect had every reason to think that their rights were not being violated and they didn`t feel coerced. If they can
show that, then the statement might come in.
JACKSON: And we saw the statement there on the screen, it wasn`t good for her at all. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JACKSON: We are thankful for all of our guests. Of course, Diana Aizman and Danny Cevallos. They want to argue now, but they can`t. Fine job for the
prosecution, Diana. Fine job for defense, Danny Cevallos. And fine job by all of you.
Thank you so much for watching. On behalf of Ashleigh Banfield and the entire HLN team, we appreciate you. We`ll be right back here tomorrow night
at 8 p.m. for PRIMETIME JUSTICE.
[21:00:00] "THE HUNT WITH JOHN WALSH" begins right now.
END